Replies

Hi Dan & Chris, I will add my two cents here briefly.
My way of thinking about Incarnation is that it began with the Big Bang, or whatever that represents. This would be something Father Richard Rohr would speak about. The Cosmic Christ. So I have a “low Christology”, believing that Jesus was a man who achieved Enlightenment, or Christ Consciousness. Made in God’s image, this is our potential as well. Jesus is the Way. He isn’t the only person to ever do this, but in my culture and DNA, he is the best pattern for me, along with a dash of the other great spiritual paths that I have studied and know something about. Zen Buddhism, Sufism, Indigenous Ways and Vedanta add to my appreciation for the Divine.
Process thought fits in well with my Theology and adds more nuance as well. Especially the Lure.
To my mind, Panentheism and the way I see Incarnation are synonymous.
I think creeds separate. Held loosely they may be useful for a vision statement, but easily become bricks in a wall if dogmatized.

Hi David, I belong to a United Church of Christ that is very liberal. That is why I chose it. It is Open and Affirming, not patriarchal and the Eucharist is open to anyone who happens to be there. We affirm all religious faiths all over the world.

Our pastor preaches and teaches with the historical/critical understanding of scripture and emphasizes the spiritual truths contained within. We always say we take the Bible seriously but not literally! I talk with my pastor about Process and he was acquainted with it from seminary 30 years ago. Most of our 100 or so members probably never heard of it. He preaches that God is not Omni, but more in a logical sense stressing free will.

Many of our hymns are boring and “Omni”, and I have mentioned this to him. He tries to avoid them sometimes but stresses that many folks are predisposed to them, they are traditional and you can’t please everyone. Lot’s of older folks here, but at least they are mostly open minded. So, I enjoy the sweet ones and ignore the others. No perfect churches I know of. LOL 😉

Thank you, Daniel. I was in that war when I was 18 years old. So much destruction. Afterward, I knew how wrong war is. There just have to be other ways to solve political problems.
Little did I suspect that years later I would benefit so much from the Vietnamese refugee known as Thay. I love his teachings and gentle presence.
I have arrived
I am home
In the here
And in the Now
I am solid
I am free
In the Infinite
I dwell

Hi Leslie & Daniel, Leslie, I think the Bible exhibits humanity always
striving to “know” the mind of God. The “knowledge” of God’s mind evolves over time, commensurate with our own mind’s ability to comprehend such. In Process, our evolution also affects God’s evolution. We also have spiritual awareness, placed there by the Divine, which we can use to make our own decisions, intuitions about God’s mind & intentions. To me, God is Love. That covers it all! And the texts are certainly provocative! We digest them and make decisions to enact the truths that resonate with our level of understanding.
I agree Daniel, Islam seems the most harsh regarding Judgement Day! I’m obviously not a Theologian but my understanding is Judaism is more about purgatory, rehabilitation, rather than eternal punishment. Also, the Christianity that I believe in is one of Universal Salvation ( David Bentley Hart) and many others, which may include some kind of rehab or purgatory. I think Islam was affected greatly by the theology of Augustine and historically prevalent attitudes of some other church Fathers that leaned in the direction of God’s wrath. No offense to any Muslims out there, but I believe there are some scholars who understand judgment in less harsh terms. Also, hopefully Islamic theology will evolve like every other religious thought system, while retaining the good that is there.
Namaste

Hi Eric, While living on Maui I met folks who introduced me to the Sufi path. Being the inveterate spiritual seeker that I am, I readily became involved. I participated in half a dozen Zikhrs, and met with a local Sheikh once a week for group discussions for several years. The Zikhrs were really powerful, chanting Allah & dancing spirally in and out together in connected concentric circles for an hour.
Also, I participated in Dances of Universal Peace many times. Wonderful practice, which I liken to a “moving prayer “.
It is very cool that your parents were involved in this path!
I feel the pressure on your life that you describe. It’s good that you are probably young! Personally, I think the “demands of modern life” are too much! I looked around at this mad, mad world and after taking some art classes in college decided to become a full time potter. It was difficult but doable to make a living, definitely low income, but I was free to work at home and be creative. Of course that was 50 years ago, I am 75 now & the cost of living is crazy high.
I was watching a YT video the other day featuring Bernardo Kastrup. He is very influenced by Carl Jung and he mentioned a Jungian analyst named James Hollis, who he proclaimed to be the wisest person he knew of. I found a YT video of him (James) being interviewed by two other analysts. Great video. What I got out of it was: don’t let the busyness and pressure of modern life get in the way of the process of “Individuation”. The process of opening and developing the full potential of the Self, the true Self, the Soul as much as possible. Not to lay another burden on you, but to consider your priorities.
When it became possible for me to retire on Disability at age 62 with $1200 a month Social Security, because of a combat wound incurred in Vietnam, I jumped at it! Not much to live on, but enough to live simply. What a huge relief “ I don’t have to work!” With my wife helping out with her pet sitting business, we can be happy.
So, hopefully you can look forward to retirement and/or create a lifestyle that is less pressured now. Maybe just don’t buy that big new house!
Namaste

[Rick]

Thanks Bill, Nature and a doting Grandma is what saved me at a young age. Growing up at the beach in Pismo Beach, California was such a blessing. I would walk a short path from her backyard through a few sand dunes with their green ice plant French fry leaves topped with purple flowers. Monarch butterflies clung to the eucalyptus trees, and the bleached bones of a whale startlingly look like a dinosaur. Down on the sand by the waters edge lay the jewels I knew would be there, Periwinkle’s, shells, each with a unique dazzling pattern of swirling colors. The origin of Wonder in me. The roots of Awe. As Socrates said “Wonder is the beginning of Wisdom”.
Still wondering.
And Grandma gave me that dose of unconditional love that still lives in me today, a foundation of good.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Rick.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 12 months ago by Rick.

Hi Bill & Chris,
I am intrigued by your discussion of “values”. BTW Bill, when I said TB& Goodness, I was referring to what I think are referred to as the Transcendentals : Truth, Beauty and Goodness.
I did some research on value in Process and found an interesting article by Andrew Davis.

Five Lures for Attention

In the talk Davis presents his “five propositions” (see below) as, in his words, “lures” for attention and feeling. They are:

1. The cosmos is not anthropomorphic; rather, human beings are anthropocosmic.
2. What the cosmos proclaims through experience is value.
3. Where there is any value, there is an intended spectrum or hierarchy of values.
4. Within this hierarchy of values, there exists an asymmetrical relationship: higher values are inclusive, while lower values are exclusive.
5. The essence or the meaning of the world, and of life itself, is rooted in its capacity to respond to the proclamations of positive value, which fundamentally ground its existence.

In my own words, I feel that all prehensions and occasions are value laden, intrinsically. The “lure” is always offered towards more intensity of experiencing more truth, beauty and goodness. I think for ANW the aesthetic (beauty) may be most important and inclusive. More beauty and complexity, with consciousness (self consciousness) , meaning optimal relational abilities (all my relations).

BTW, you two are both so deep and poetic that I am blown away 🙂 !!

Good points Daniel. The way I view the Abrahamic traditions is through the lens of “evolution “. Spiritual evolution, the evolution of the God concept through time. The people’s of the book experienced a covenantal relationship with the Divine. The codes of conduct are premodern concepts trying to explain a perplexing world full of dangers and suffering, and how to avoid them, with God’s help and right action. Immature minds seem to require and respond to fear most readily.
The teachings of Jesus upends the focus on law, replacing fear with trust. Replacing ritual with “value”, love, compassion and care for one’s neighbor, broadly construed.
Open and Relational Theology and Process Theology continue this evolutionary profess, riffing on these Abrahamic traditions.

What a beautiful insight Bill! Normally, I highly value the idea of a wonderful “destination “, Heaven on Earth. I am an idealist who, going against the grain, yearns for Utopia. I hear many voices warning against such thinking, “ all attempts at utopias have only brought about dystopias.”
Now, with your insight, I see a possible way of speaking “values”, creating values daily as a small personal “goal/utopia”,rather than an ultimate grand utopian “destination”. Values of TB& Goodness, Love. I realize this sounds sort of inverted to your point of value/goal contrast, but to me a goal can refer to a “way of being “, not necessarily a destination. Maybe I am just floundering in semantics.
Anyway, thanks for your ideas.

Hi Chris,
Would you please put a link to your Sunday discussion group here? When you posted it in the comments a few weeks ago, it disappeared before I could write it down.
Thanks,
Rick

Also, Jamie & Chris, I too love this new term Theocosm. It is an easy way for me to remember and describe the Panentheism that I see as Process.

Thanks again, Rick

Indigenous: all my relations
past, present & future
land & sky (heavens)

Judaism: Gift, history, covenant, telos

Beauty in the natural world makes me feel happy. Beauty stimulates my curiosity and wonder. Wonder is the beginning of wisdom.